Prague Powder #1

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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby Midlandsman » 30 Apr 2016, 18:36

essexsmoker wrote:Hang on, is it the salt in the cure #1? The other 93.75%. That would make sense. Wish there was a note to explain that somewhere.
If there is I need to get to spec savers!

Thanks brisket.

Is it just my rendering or does the Digging Dog Farm calculator just come up with everything else garbled on the page? As in the HTML parts... The calc is fine but the rest of the page isn't there.


Yes, that's correct, the calculator takes into account the salt in the cure 1.
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby aris » 01 May 2016, 00:36

What are you making? 2.5 is on the salty side for sausage for example, but not unpalatable - it depends on your personal taste. I make sausage with 1% (by weight).
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby essexsmoker » 03 May 2016, 09:10

I'm looking to do belly pork streaky bacon.
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby aris » 03 May 2016, 12:13

You need to follow a true and trusted recipe. Check out Len Polis site http://lpoli.50webs.com/ - it covers all manner of cured meats and sausages, and most of the recipes there have been scientifically verified by him. With bacon, you tend to put more salt than you will need - and then wash it off at the end of the curing time.
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby Midlandsman » 03 May 2016, 14:48

aris wrote:What are you making? 2.5 is on the salty side for sausage for example, but not unpalatable - it depends on your personal taste. I make sausage with 1% (by weight).


The calculator on the localfoodheroes.co.uk website is for bacon. The default setting is 2.5% salt and 1% sugar, but these can be set by the user. Many will choose to lower, or remove, the sugar content.

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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby Midlandsman » 03 May 2016, 16:58

wade wrote:
essexsmoker wrote:I thought the US regs recommend 200ppm max and min 120ppm in the meat itself?

I saw somewhere a wet cure that uses 120ppm solution (or whatever strength you want) so that you can never over nitrite because there is a max 120ppm in the solution. Over time the meat and solution equilibrate.

Complete novice to curing so might have it completely arse about face. Lol.


Let the confusion begin - LOL. From reading posts online I thought that too until I started to dig deeper into it a few years ago.

The US and UK approach the limits slightly differently (but bear in mind these are for commercial preparation and not for home production)
In the EU the maximum permitted residual levels in bacon for Nitrites is 175 mg/Kg (ppm) and for Nitrates is 250 mg/kg (ppm)
In the US Nitrates are not permitted for use in bacon because of the risk of Nitrosamine production when fried at high temperatures.
In the US the 200 mg/kg (ppm) is the "maximum ingoing" for Nitrite in meat and poultry products - and not the residual amounts after curing. The maximum ingoing for Nitrate is 700 mg/kg (ppm) where permitted. Unfortunately the definition of "ingoing" is not particularly clear as it seems to be defined differently in different official documents. There seems to be no defined maximum residual value for Nitrite in the US, however as the EU specify 170 mg/kg (ppm), if there was one is would be unlikely to differ greatly from this.



There is a lot to digest here.

essexsmoker wrote:I thought the US regs recommend 200ppm max and min 120ppm in the meat itself?


The US regs refer to ingoing amounts and a minimum of 120PPM is required.

The max of 200PPM refers to Nitrite in immersion or pumped/injected cures and Rind-On bacon.

The US limits for nitrite in sausage and dry cures are 156PPM and 625PPM respectively. It should be noted that most authorities on the subject of curing would not recommend anything approaching the 625PPM limit.

The US limits for Dry cured bacon are slightly different. The limit is 200 ppm of sodium nitrite or equivalent of potassium nitrite (246 ppm) in Rind-Off bacon and 180PPM sodium nitrite (221PPM potassium nitrite) in Rind-On.

Pumped/injected and dry cures are simple to calculate and the US handbook specifies the method it should be done.

Unfortunately, for the calculation of immersion cures they give 2 methods. The one that Wade prefers is by far the most accurate/sensible. As to the other method, when asked, even the US authorities that wrote it couldn't explain the logic/science behind it.

Wade wrote:In the EU the maximum permitted residual levels in bacon for Nitrites is 175 mg/Kg (ppm) and for Nitrates is 250 mg/kg (ppm)


The residual limits that you refer to are only for certain existing products made to specific processes. The legislation also refers to 'Similar products' to those mentioned, however, the UK guidance notes (.pdf link - see page 26 et seq) strongly suggest that these should have been made for at least 25 years before the 2007 legislation was introduced to qualify.

The EU limit for all of these items is otherwise 150 PPM ingoing. This was the recommendation of the EFSA scientists that advised on it:

http://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default ... nts/14.pdf

The scientists were quite clear that they think that working on maximum ingoing amounts is the best way and that the limit should be 150PPM ingoing. The research reviewed showed little relationship between residual nitrite and product safety so no maximum residual amount was specified (other than in the derogations).

It seems logical to work to the 150PPM ingoing amount, particularly as this is far easier to calculate/verify in all but immersion cures. Working to residual amounts would be costly as it would require testing. Unless, of course, one chose to use an ingoing amount less than the maximum residual in the derogation!

That said, the law only refers to commercial producers so when producing for their own use people can do as they like.

I hope this helps.

Wade wrote:For home use, for wt brining, you are safest using a cure that is the maximum strength of the final residual cure concentration that you are looking to achieve. This is called equilibrium brining, and providing you leave the meat in the brine long enough (10-14 days) then you can reasonably assume that an equilibrium will have been reached throughout the meat - though in the meat itself it will always be slightly lower because of the mass of the meat fibres.


That's fantastic advice for anyone planning to immersion cure meat.

Another excellent way of curing ham and similar things is a combination of dry and injection curing...

...but that's another story!

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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby aris » 04 May 2016, 08:10

You could always just buy a commercial bacon cure. You just weigh the meat, put the required amount of cure on it, pack it in a zip-lock bag, and put it in the fridge for the required amount of time.
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby essexsmoker » 04 May 2016, 11:51

aris wrote:You could always just buy a commercial bacon cure. You just weigh the meat, put the required amount of cure on it, pack it in a zip-lock bag, and put it in the fridge for the required amount of time.

Yes, but that would be boring and I wouldn't learn anything. Lol.
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby essexsmoker » 04 May 2016, 11:53

Midlandsman wrote:
aris wrote:What are you making? 2.5 is on the salty side for sausage for example, but not unpalatable - it depends on your personal taste. I make sausage with 1% (by weight).


The calculator on the localfoodheroes.co.uk website is for bacon. The default setting is 2.5% salt and 1% sugar, but these can be set by the user. Many will choose to lower, or remove, the sugar content.

MM

Yes, they are just the defalut settings. Having never made it before I have no idea how salty that will be.

Is there a minimum that should be used, safety / curing wise?
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Re: Prague Powder #1

Postby Midlandsman » 04 May 2016, 12:56

That's a difficult one, in theory, you could make it with very little salt - the only thing is that you'd have to treat it as if it was fresh meat. That said, the level that most people like doesn't really make a long-keeping 'shelf stable' product - it's still best kept under refrigeration maybe vac-packed or yes, horror of horrors, even vac-packed and frozen for the longer term!

The 2.5% salt, 1% sugar is a good starting point. You can then adjust it to your own preference. At one point in time my kids preferred 1.5% salt, but I've traded them in for better children and they now like 2.25%/0.8%! As an example, the tutorial at sausagemaking.org was written for 2% salt, 1% sugar and there are as many complaints that it's too salty as that it's not salty enough.

With lower salt, there can be an issue of adequate coverage of the meat (say) 20gm/kg is not a lot when you've the surface area of belly for example.

Don't forget that reducing the sugar makes it taste more salty. If you go for no sugar, start at 2% salt for a bacon where the meat's the star. Bacon without sugar is also far less likely to burn.

Bacon making is one of the simplest curing processes to do and repays you a thousand fold. The hardest part is slicing it! Until, that is, you've persuaded the 'household authorities' that they can't live without a Berkel!

Hope this helps.

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